Teh Nutroots | My opinion? What Chris Rock said. In other words, I called it a draw. BUT THE WIN GOES TO..... ::drum roll:: .
For what it's worth: The Frank Luntz and Stanley Greenberg focus groups went overwhelmingly for Obama. And a CBS poll of undecideds went for Obama 40%-22%.
Update: The CNN polls goes to Barack, 51%-38%.(The New Republic)
Also for what it's worth, here's a transcript. But you really had to see it to appreciate the contribution to their discourse of their respective, very different demeanors.
THE ROLE OF DEMEANOR
Ron Chusid deadpans: "It is...notable that Barack Obama wore a flag pin but John McCain did not. Does John McCain hate America?"
I thought he'd be affable and Reaganesque. That's what McCain does. But no.
At The Moderate Voice, Robert Stein says in "The Demeanor Debate":
John McCain spent 90 minutes tonight telling voters Barack Obama “doesn’t understand” what America is facing, as Obama demonstrated a broad grasp of the 21st century issues besetting the economy and national security.
Body language was revealing in McCain’s tight grin that occasionally morphed into a smirk under criticism, while Obama featured a relaxed smile and at least half a dozen times responded with a generous “John is right, but…
James Fallows: "This is distinctly strange -- if anyone else notices. Obama is acting as if this is a conversation; McCain, as if he cannot acknowledge the other party in the discussion."
Mark Halperin has done a pretty exhaustive analysis of key points and graded each candidate accordingly.
Halperin gives McCain a "B-." Among much else, he says:
He had plenty to say about the economy, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Russia, but often bogged down his own answers when trying to unfurl quips and soundbites. Stuck with bumper sticker slogans on the economy, and while he got a bit more detailed on foreign policy, he stayed at his usual level of abstraction. If he truly knows more about the world than Obama, he didn't show it in this debate....
Was visibly riled when clashing with Obama over a variety of issues, including Iraq, sanctions, and spending. He also chose to boast about Sarah Palin (although not by name) as his maverick partner, who, after her shaky week, may no longer be his ace in the hole.
Quite manifestly immersed in the past, present, and future details of policy, and eager to express his views, which have been expanded, honed, and solidified during the last 18 months of hard campaigning. Still, he did avoid the nitty-gritty details of policy positions in favor of broad principles and references to working Americans, thereby not presenting the kind of specifics that some voters are waiting to hear from him...
Had a reasonable answer for every charge that came his way — with little anger, bluster, or anxiety. Often interrupting McCain attacks with swift explanations and comebacks, he managed to spin accusations of being liberal as evidence of his relentless opposition to George Bush (in replies that were clearly planned). Offered a rather clumsy alternative to McCain's well-known, moving story of wearing the bracelet of a soldier lost in Iraq (a gift from the soldier's mother), with a story about a bracelet of his own. Fearless, without condescension, he attempted the gracious move of agreeing with or complimenting a McCain position, occasionally to his own detriment. (More...)
Which is pretty much what Nicholas says here.
Pam Spaulding comments:.
McCain looked testy and contemptuous throughout, not to mention the man lied repeatedly. The makeup job was more than distracting - I guess he felt he needed the deluxe $5K job. Also, the weird body language, was disturbing. He refused to look Obama in the eye; this seems odd and passive. McCain looked uncomfortable most of the time....
Ian Welsh at FDL says the same.
Just to point out what's obvious in retrospect: McCain might have arguably done a better technical job of debating and the transcript may look like a victory for him, but he came across horribly: brittle, old, condescending and downright mean. You wouldn't want to have beer with this guy, that's for sure.
JUST THE FACT CHECKS, PLEASE
At The HuffPost, Taylor Marsh has mustered some fact [check]s:
Washington Post: Fact Check- McCain seriously misstated his vote concerning the marines in Lebanon. He said that when he went into Congress in 1983, he voted against deploying them in Beirut. The Marines went in Lebanon in 1982, before McCain came to Congress.....
Washington Post: Fact Checker- John McCain raised an old Republican canard, repeated often in the primaries, when he claimed that Obama's health care plan would eventually turn the health care system over to the federal government. The Illinois senator proposes helping individuals purchase health insurance through a system of subsidies and tax credits. He is also in favor of mandatory health insurance for children. But he is not advocating a state-run health system, such as the one that exists in Britain and some European countries.
Washington Post (Live Blog) Fact Check: McCain accused Obama of wanting to stage "military strikes" inside Pakistan, which is a misleading account of what Obama famously said in 2007: That he would be willing to go after Al Qaeda targets inside that country with or without the approval of the Pakistani authorities."If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will," Obama said. (HuffPost)
As Athenae Jones says, Obama seems to do well with the longer format.
CHOICE BITS FROM LIVEBLOGS
McCain is starting to let his contempt for Obama show. He keeps laughing like some sort of disturbed gremlin... McCain stupidly reminds people that Obama wanted soldiers out of Iraq last March, which is what people want. .
McCain lies about Obama’s position on withdrawal. All the things that annoy me about Obama’s position (premising withdrawal on conditions on the ground, consulting with commanders “on the ground,” etc.) McCain pretends don’t exist. McCain is a flat-out liar. Weirdly, after pushing back against McCain all night, Obama lets McCain get away with it....
Obama proved that the idea that he is somehow not well-versed on foreign policy is nonsense. From here on out, McCain is in a lot of trouble. In future debates he can’t just keep saying, “Earmark reform, drill, baby, drill, maverick” and expect people to pay attention to what he says. (More.)
UK blogger Alex Massie:
Trent Lott (R-Disgraced) was on Fox earlier. His message? "I don't want there to be a clear winner tonight... I want the American people to be the winner." Drink!
McCain can't pronounce Ahmadinejad. Calls him "Armada Dinner Jacket". Since the bearded wonder doesn't control Iranian nuclear or foreign policy this doesn't matter so much. Woo! Obama points this out. Then suggests McCain is no Henry Kissinger. That may not be a bad thing of course. (Admittedly, Obama is talking about Iran.) Admits his Iranian policy "may not work". A welcome breath of realism...
McCain thinks it's terrible Obama hasn't been to Afghanistan. Of course, his Vice-President hasn't even been to Saskatchewan. (More)
Chris Matthews suggests that it would be hard for Obama to capture "the racist vote." Yep....
Bracelet wars. McCain tells a story about his bracelet, from the mother of a soldier who said "don't let my son's death be in vain." Obama tells of his bracelet, from a mother of a soldier who said "don't let other mothers go through what I'm going through." Maybe jewelry is not the right way to understand geopolitics?
Wonkette's take:
McCain: “I knew some guy who died last year.” Oh is he crying? Oh god he’s crying.
HAHAHA Obama: “I knew some guy who died last year too.” But he doesn’t cry because he’s an adult.
More Wonkette:
Gosh, McCain has learned that corporate money given to government corrupts. Come on Barry, give McCain some Keating Five....(here)
CLINTON REACTION
Hillary Clinton said:
"Tonight Barack Obama displayed beyond a doubt that he understands both the gravity of the financial crisis facing America, and the challenges we face in Iraq and around the world. Senator McCain offered only more of the same failed policies of the Bush Administration. America deserves better.
"I stood next to Barack Obama in 22 debates and tonight epitomized why millions are joining me in standing with him and working hard to ensure he is the next President of the United States." (h/t HuffPost)
BLOGGER REACTIONS
Well, the early returns are in and Barack Obama won the debate by every meaningful measure. I can't say that I am sure why. I saw the debate as a draw. But I'm a man and, according to CNN, men preferred McCain by a 46%-43% margin, while Obama won among women by a 59%-31% margin.
The reason I saw the debate as a draw was because McCain was more consistently on the attack, he was extremely tough, he didn't make any major gaffes, and he demonstrated a good working knowledge of foreign affairs. For me, that was enough to compensate for a very strong performance by Barack Obama.
Digby wasn't sure how much of what she saw happen was colored by her own bias against McCain.
It's very hard for me to gauge this debate because to me John McCain is quite obviously a crazy, intemperate, nasty old bastard. He was sarcastic, contemptuous and patronizing....(On the other hand Barack said "I agree with John" about 832 times, so perhaps I'm misjudging him.)
Having inferred that the consensus was that McCain won, she was relieved by the poll results.
Sadly, No's D. Aristophanes is interested in McCain's threat/promise/proposed "spending freeze."
[F]olks, consider this - McCain is now ON THE RECORD as saying he wants to cut all spending but military, veteran’s benefits and entitlements. This is hammer-able, hammer-able shit. Here’s what McCain wants to ignore in future McCain America
- Healthcare, as Obama pointed out. Fuck ‘em. Let ‘em ruin themselves over basic hospital bills.
- Alternative energy, as Obama pointed out. Fuck ‘em. Let ‘em pay $4->$5->$10->$20->$?? a gallon.
- FEMA. Katrina, Ike? Fuck ‘em. Let ‘em drown.
- Infrastructure. Bridges collapsing in Minnesota? Trains crashing in SoCal due to operator error? Fuck ‘em. Let ‘em crash and die.
- Education. Kids can’t read? Fuck ‘em. Let the Chinese and Indians do our reading for us.
- Start-ups. Fuck ‘em. Let Europe build Technology 2.0.
- International Investment. Fuck ‘em. Let all those Sub-Saharan Africans die of HIV-Aids.
Wonkette, on the same point:
OH MY GOD JOHN MCCAIN IS OFF HIS METAMUCIL AIDS PILLS AGAIN: He wants to have a “spending freeze,” um, “temporarily,” for all items that aren’t defense or veterans’ care. WHAA? Obama lists two of the 8,000 million trillion reasons why this is not actually policy at all ever. “Medicare,” for example...(here).
Ken Ashford at The Seventh Sense:
Obama was better on style and demeanor.
McCain was better, especially on the second half, on "points", but Obama was toe-to-toe with him most of the way, and refused to let McCain's spun "facts" go unanswered. In a debate largely about foreign policy -- McCain's bailiwick -- that might actually be a "win" for Obama. In fact, McCain's taunts that Obama "didn't understand" or was "naive" seemed to fall flat.
No question Obama won tonight. The only surprise is that the media actually seems to agree. I'm so used to thinking that the Democrat was the clear winner (because I, ya know, listen to the actual content of the debate) and then listening to two solid hours of talking heads rewrite the debate into something not remotely resembling what I just watched, that I can't actually believe it's not happening this time. Now that's some change I can believe in!
I won't spend any time discussing the policy shit, because, let's face it, McCain was a total disaster. Those talking points are deader than Tut, man.
But wait! The talking heads did what they always do: overrate the Republican in inverse proportion to their initial low expectations. Ben Smith says:
The mild consensus in the press file was that McCain won, if not in particularly dramatic fashion. The two insta-polls out -- from CBS and CNN -- found the opposite: That Obama won by a wide margin. CBS had it 39% to 25% for Obama, CNN 51% to 38%.
Maybe the difference was expectations. People covering the campaigns think of Obama as a much-improved debate, and McCain as at times a weak one. McCain, by that standard, overperformed. But people tuning into the race now now think of McCain as an experienced hand, and Obama as a newcomer. Obama more than held his own, and McCain failed to expose him -- as he tried -- as out of his depth.
John Cole: "Next week, Palin talks for 90 minutes. Think about that."
At TPM, Eric Kleefeld gives a wrap-up of four major polls. Obama's margin is improving---somewhat----since McCain decided to suspend operations. No wonder McCranky was so grumpy.
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And, for the record, the Fox poll has McCain 80% to Obama 20%.
Posted by: freadom | September 27, 2008 at 06:37 AM
We are facing a great depression in this nation again. Neither of these candidates have a clue. And yet all the political blogs and television commentators mindlessly carry on about debating style. Barack Obama and John McCain had absolutely nothing to say about what to do to get the nation out of this disaster. Who lost the debate? America.
Posted by: TingumbobEsq | September 27, 2008 at 09:29 AM
Tingumbob, I disagree with your assessment of the economy, and (implicitly) with your assessment of the bailout plan that Obama supports.
Hahaha. Fox polls. They're so cute. Obama won this debate among independents and undecideds by every objective measure, across many polls.
The funny thing is that an impartial observer of the debate, judging on content alone, would probably call it a draw. Both candidates did a good job stating their basic positions and there were few real zingers. But a tie goes to the frontrunner, since few people will get swung by this. Moreover, Obama is the lesser known quantity in this election, and any time he looks good on national TV it takes one more chance away from McCain to turn things around.
The best description of this debate that I heard actually came from one of those "Joe on the street" reaction interviews, on CBS. Usually I hate those, but this guy commented that it reminded him of Nixon-Kennedy in 1960. Historically, that's a good analogy. They both did fine on the issues, but one guy looked calm and presidential, and the other guy looked tired, agitated, and angry. Although I wish it was about the issues, it's the stupid crap like that that wins elections. And thankfully, my guy is on the right side of it this time around.
Posted by: Adam | September 27, 2008 at 10:37 AM
I agree with the above posts, neither of these candidats excites me in the least.
I feel like even reading anything on this election is a waste of my time, because neither of these candidates are taking us anywhere.
Posted by: Josh Neumann | September 27, 2008 at 10:39 AM
As I said, I call it a draw. But I am for Obama, who at least will understand---and follow---advice (I believe) of people who DO know what they are talking about.
Posted by: Teh Nutroots | September 27, 2008 at 03:03 PM
John McCain proved that he is a continuation of Bush's dirty politics. His message still unclear about the economy, foreign policy etc...John McCain and George Bush are, as the pygmies of Central African Republic say,"the fingers of the same hand."
Guy Blaise
Posted by: Guy Blaise | September 27, 2008 at 08:18 PM