Posted by Damozel | To be strictly fair, he also said whether it is torture also depends on "how it's done." You can read the transcript in which he says this right here at The New York Times' Political Caucus. And, to be even more fair, he also says, or seems to say, that he really doesn't know how it's done. He said:
It depends on how it’s done. It depends on the circumstances. It depends on who does it. I think the way it’s been defined in the media, it shouldn’t be done. The way in which they have described it, particularly in the liberal media. So I would say, if that’s the description of it, then I can agree, that it shouldn’t be done. But I have to see what the real description of it is. Because I’ve learned something being in public life as long as I have. And I hate to shock anybody with this, but the newspapers don’t always describe it accurately....Sometimes they describe it accurately. Sometimes they exaggerate it. So I’d have to see what they really are doing.” (New York Times Political Caucus)
I wish he'd get someone to give him a demo then, if he really needs more information to know....
I'm pretty sure that a little firsthand experience being on the receiving end of even the most gentle, considerate waterboarding would help clarify what he calls the "very difficult and delicate line" between torture and aggressive questioning. Because, to strain a ligament being even more fair, he clearly stated that he is not in favor of actual torture, assuming you could convince him that that line was actually crossed. (New York Times Political Caucus)
Now, on the question of torture. We should not torture. America should not stand for torture, America should not allow torture. But America should engage in aggressive questioning of Islamic terrorists who are arrested or who are apprehended. Because if we don’t we leave ourselves open to significant attack.....[W]e can’t abandon aggressive questioning of people who are intent on coming here to kill us. Or killing us overseas. I think that that’s the point that the attorney general designate [Michael Mukasey] was trying to make." (New York Times Political Caucus)
Emphasizing that torture is bad---"I think America should never be for torture. America should be against torture. It violates the Geneva Convention."---he nevertheless seems to say that whether it's torture or not depends on how you classify the recipient.
Certainly when we’re dealing with armed combatants, we shouldn’t get near anything like that. There is a distinction, sometimes, when you’re dealing with terrorists. You may have to use means that are a little tougher. (New York Times Political Caucus)
Yes, that's always the rationale: that expediency in exigent circumstances dictates the method. And Giuliani knows from exigent circumstances:
You know how I put hundreds of Mafia people in jail? And I helped to put thousands in Italy in jail? You know how I did it? I did it by electronic surveillance and aggressive questioning. None of them wanted to give me the information. They didn’t walk into my office and say, ‘I want to tell you about all of those Mafia murders…”
“They got ‘em because we arrested them, we got very significant charges on them, and we questioned them for long, long periods of time. With very aggressive techniques. Never ever tortured anybody. I can tell you that. Would never allow it. Don’t know of any situation in which the F.B.I. did it.’’(New York Times Political Caucus)
He thinks that the president needs "leeway" to decide whether to authorize very, very aggressive questioning in exigent circumstances:
If there was a terrorist attack on an American city, and it was clear that there were all going to be additional attacks, some of them were going to be nuclear, and they were planned for the next couple of days and one of the people involved in it was arrested, and the head of the C.I.A. came to you and said we have to do certain things to get the information from him, would you authorize it? And I think most of us answered it, yes we would, we would authorize doing whatever we thought was the most effective to get that information....The president has to have that kind of leeway. We’ve got to trust our president well enough to allow that. (New York Times Political Caucus)
Aye, there's the rub.
Here's conservative columnist Andrew Sullivan's laconic summing up:
This man cannot be allowed to be president of the United States. He believes that the United States is above morals and the president of the United States is above the law. He is a tyrant to the depths of his being. (Giuliani On Waterboarding)
See Memeorandum here for a LOT of discussion.
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LINKED
In His Words: Giuliani on Torture (New York Times Political Caucus)
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